I'm following an excrutiating thread here: http://forums.sherdog.com/forums/f54...as-fw-2569973/ which has been hijacked by a couple of creationists / ID proponents one of whom proudly proclaims he knows for sure god exists because apparently modern science itself shows it. The argument, which looks suspiciously familiar is:
1. Current scientific knowledge indicates the universe (and nature) has only existed for a finite time
2. An axiom of science is that every natural event has a cause
3. Therefore, the universe (and nature) must have had a cause
4. Something cannot cause itself
5. Therefore, this cause must have been supernatural (not natural)
And I should add that of course "not natural" automatically equals god here.
Attempts to argue that modern science doesn't claim to have a good answer to the creation of the universe and that the laws of physics as we know them don't even necessarily apply at the moment of the big bang or that the universe might just as well be one of many that form and die and so on are met with deflections and side arguments until it's tangled mess.
What is the neatest most parsimonious argument against this line of logic. It seems to patently wrong to me I can hardly begin.
1. Current scientific knowledge indicates the universe (and nature) has only existed for a finite time
2. An axiom of science is that every natural event has a cause
3. Therefore, the universe (and nature) must have had a cause
4. Something cannot cause itself
5. Therefore, this cause must have been supernatural (not natural)
And I should add that of course "not natural" automatically equals god here.
Attempts to argue that modern science doesn't claim to have a good answer to the creation of the universe and that the laws of physics as we know them don't even necessarily apply at the moment of the big bang or that the universe might just as well be one of many that form and die and so on are met with deflections and side arguments until it's tangled mess.
What is the neatest most parsimonious argument against this line of logic. It seems to patently wrong to me I can hardly begin.
via JREF Forum http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=266863&goto=newpost
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